Building Coaching Programs Through Experimentation

Dom Mas: Hi, you're listening to the Coaching in Organizations podcast. Real stories and strategies for building coaching cultures within organizations with an unapologetic love of group coaching. I'm your host, Dominique Mas, and I'm the founder at Group Coaching HQ.

Today, my guest is Betsy Campbell, dream coach at IMA Financial Group. Betsy took our certification program back in early 2024. Since then, she's continued to build the coaching culture at the firm, and she has experimented with group coaching.

In this episode, we dive into what it means to build a pilot program thoughtfully and with both the client and the organization in mind. Betsy shares how she chose the population for her pilot, what worked, what didn't, and what she learned along the way. So if you're thinking about building a pilot program at your organization, this episode is for you.

Hi, Betsy. Welcome to the Coaching in Organizations podcast.

Betsy Campbell: Hi, Dom. I'm so happy to be here.

Dom Mas: You have been a proud IMA associate and shareholder since 2012, And prior to joining, you managed EB clients at other Denver-based regional brokerage firms. Your early career included experience in advertising, marketing, and human resources.

And what I loved hearing in our conversations is that building relationships and supporting others in their growth has always been a passion for you. So in 2018, you completed a coach training program and you transitioned full-time to the best job title in the world. I am a dream coach, and that was in 2022.

You've lived in Colorado since 1991. You love to ski, play golf, hike, camp, read, travel, all the things that I hear people do in Colorado. And usually you do this with your son and your partner and his kids.

I also really loved that you included in your bio that you're honored and humbled, and I, I really appreciate that word, to help IMA Associates become their best selves, whatever that means to each of them, and that you believe fully that everyone has the ability to create what they want in their life. And we always start with asking about your origin story. Tell us a little bit about how you actually got into coaching in first place?

Betsy Campbell: When I look back, I can see seeds along the way of that I had interest in doing something like this, but I don't— it wasn't necessarily on my radar that it could be coaching. And of course, the profession itself was growing along the way while I was creating my own career.

In, it was roughly 10 years ago, one of our associates here at IMA, who I worked with closely in my client-facing role. So by client-facing, I mean our corporate clients external to IMA. And he was kind of at a fork in the road with his career. And he had been longtime, very successful salesperson. And he— we had just launched our sabbatical program, and he went on his sabbatical after gathering a lot of insights from important people in his life and reading and really reflecting on what he wanted to do next.

And he read a book called The Dream Manager, which gave him this idea to bring this dream coach concept to IMA. And it's not exactly the way that the, that the book describes it, not precisely. And there's an organization behind all that. But it was really his own imagining of what this could be like at IMA. And fortunately, our very insightful CEO got on board pretty quickly and said, "Yes, Brad, you can do this here at IMA." And so Brad started this coaching role.

During that time, I also knew that I was realizing that I still had these calls within me to look at something where I could be present for others and help them in their growth. And at times, I thought that meant psychology and maybe going back to school for a graduate degree, which I seriously considered at times. But I was in a, a conversation with our first Dream Coach, and I was talking about that. And he said, well, have you ever thought about coaching? And it was definitely a lightbulb moment for me.

And I left that conversation thinking, I'm going to look at this, and I'm going to seriously consider it. And so I made that leap once I found a program that I felt really reflected the kind of experience I wanted to have and that resonated for me. I thought, OK, here I go. I'm going to take a leap. I'm going to do this. And I didn't really know what the outcome was going to be. I didn't know exactly how I would use it, but I trusted the process.

Ultimately, as things would happen, Brad did end up retiring. I continued in my role as an employee benefits account executive. And I was leading teams, and I was trying to use the skills that I had learned in the coaching program. In that context and wherever I could. But then it came that opportunity, and I thought, this is when I need to do it. I need to make the case that I have both the institutional knowledge as an associate at IMA, and I understand the path that people have walked and are walking here. And so I made my case that I had both the credentials and that I cared a lot about the organization. And fortunately, I am the one that won out in the end.

Dom Mas: And congratulations, and I'm so glad you did. Thank you. I'm curious how your own experience and your own moving into coaching influences how the coaching culture is developing at IMA.

Betsy Campbell: I am bringing to it the willingness to be creative and to experiment and to try new things and being authentic in that and really reinforcing that concept, because I think that's very consistent with coaching and building a coaching culture. Being able to practice things and try things and maybe not get it perfect right away.

Also, I see that I learned a lot in the, in my coaching training about really seeing opportunities around me and being able to collaborate and maybe not having to have my ego be in the driver's seat all the time. It's not just me building the coaching culture, even though I have a really important part in it.

Our HR team, who are colleagues of mine, but I don't report through the same structure. So I'm separate from HR. But they are also committed to building a coaching culture. So they have worked on programs that help with introducing our managers and our leaders to coaching principles and kind of rounding out that culture, right? So it's not just me. And there definitely were times where I thought, oh, should I be the one that is driving that part? And then I realized, you know what? It's not a zero-sum game. We can all be a part of this together.

Dom Mas: The first thing that you mentioned before you talked about the collaboration the creativity and the willingness to try new things and not being perfect at everything. It actually is a perfect move into what we're talking about today, which is building a pilot, because that's really the, the meat of what we're going to dive into. Could you, before we do that, just share a little bit about the landscape at IMA in terms of coaching?

Betsy Campbell: We do have a couple of programs that are provided by external resources that provide coaching and coaching skills, coaching concepts to managers as well as higher-level leaders. So those are two distinct programs that, that again are produced and presented by external resources. So really, really helpful piece.

And then in terms of the role I fill, I'm doing both group coaching and one-on-one coaching. We're still in the process, so it's still something that's gaining momentum, and we're growing a lot. We have been for the last 5 years or so. I would say it's still a work in progress for sure.

Dom Mas: You have had a rare amount of freedom to create in this role, so I'm curious for you, what's really exciting about having that freedom to create, and what's surprisingly hard about it?

Betsy Campbell: It is fun to be able to have the opportunity to create whatever I need based on the needs that I see. So that just allows me to imagine and think and see what people need. And that, I think, is the most important thing because really that's fundamental to coaching of any type is what is the the coachee's agenda. What do they need? What are they looking for? So I'm always rooted in that.

I definitely appreciate how much latitude I have with all this. It also terrifies me sometimes, frankly. And fair. I think, oh, if only there was a structure, if there was some clarity around some of this. But really, it just— the freedom, I think, is more important than the creativity is more important.

Also, I continue to think more strategically about what does the organization need also as a way of helping myself prioritize where I'm going to focus. So that's becoming more clear to me.

Dom Mas: One of the things that I really enjoyed hearing about from you is that your very first pilot from or for group coaching really came from a very human signal. In your one-on-one session, a lot of women were disclosing ADHD to you. What made you trust that pattern enough to turn it into a group coaching program? Because that ended up being the connector between all the participants in that pilot program.

Betsy Campbell: I think it was very much the fact that I kept hearing it. It just was that there was— it was repeated so many times. And again, going back to the Coachee's agenda. And that felt like it was really important. And I think there, particularly with women with ADHD, don't tend to feel like they are a part of a community, or they don't know many other women who, who have ADHD. It's not something that people are broadly talking about, just, just self-disclosing out in the open.

So just on a gut level, I thought, well, these women need a chance to connect with each other. There's just no question about it. And perhaps just that fact that that was coming through so strongly was a good way for me to try something out. The invitation didn't go out to the whole organization. So it was going to a specific list of women who were engaged in our women's network. So I knew that they were likely to be interested in being engaged in groups in some way and help getting some support. Those things made it feel like it was a, it was a good bet.

I think also, I was not always sure how to meet them where they were because I don't have ADHD. And so in one-on-one sessions, you know, I thought, well, maybe there's a way to, to create that environment and that collaboration that will help them even more than just the one-on-one situation. So that was certainly a big part of it. But it was trusting my gut and that I had the latitude. There wasn't any big mistake I was going to make. And I had done some other types of— they might not have been technically group coaching, at least not the way that it's defined by best practices, right? But I had done some other group things, but it was a defined population and something that I could really think about What might this look like and how could it help? It wasn't too broad. It was, it was narrowed in a little bit.

Dom Mas: Let me ask you a question that comes from Tracy Jenkins, who was our previous guest on the podcast. She was wondering whether your outreach for the pilot program resulted in the participation that you anticipated in terms of numbers and interest alignment.

Betsy Campbell: We got much more response than we really anticipated initially, and we had to create kind of a cutoff. We weren't able to take everybody into the program. We felt it was important to keep it focused on those who had already been diagnosed. So there were some that naturally, you know, we're letting go of and letting them know that definition.

I think we did have a couple of people who dropped out of the program. And I think we had 1 or 2 people who, who ended up dropping off after they weren't able to make a few sessions because we did ask for a commitment that they would make— I think we had 10 sessions and that they would make 8 of 10 or something like that. I don't remember the exact numbers now, but it was roughly that.

So in retrospect, what I learned was that in another pilot, I would be making sure to check in with those people and say, hey, I know you haven't shown up in a couple of times. What's up? Find out, see if they still wanted to continue and see if that would be manageable and doable.

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Dom Mas: With that in mind, I know that when you launched the pilot, you thought it was going to be one thing, and I'm curious what it actually became once people were in the room.

Betsy Campbell: The group coaching best practices that I learned through your program and that I, I knew to be true. And also with that, we incorporated a book. That was meant to help support the women in exploring their ADHD and exploring questions that they could to make some decisions and gain, gain some more clarity, but also some, some tips and techniques and things like that that might be helpful to them.

I was trying to adhere to the agenda I had put together initially. As it went on, I was feeling like maybe They really were— the talking was the most important part where they were sharing and they were connecting. And so I checked in with them, again, going back to what's their agenda, what do they need, what did they want. And really what they wanted was to talk to each other. They just wanted to connect. That was the most important thing.

I think primarily if I had more explicitly taught them coaching skills, early on that might have shifted it a bit. But I don't feel like it's a loss. It's, it's again more of, okay, well, I can see how that might be important at, in another group, or how I can institute that in another group and make that work. So I don't think it worked against the group. I think they got what they wanted out of it. And what they needed.

So, and I think the other thing I would say is just in, as far as learnings, this was, I think it, again, I think it was 10 sessions. And it would've been certainly very easy to pilot 4 sessions or something that was a little shorter. Maybe, you know, maybe not try to serve as many people as I did. Maybe focus it in a little bit more and make it a little shorter and then be able to iterate again more quickly. So it took a long time to unfold those 10 sessions.

Dom Mas: What then did the experience teach you about the difference between a coaching program and a support space? And as you're thinking about future pilots, why does this distinction matter when you're designing programs internally now?

Betsy Campbell: I think that's such a great question, Dom, and I think it's one I'm going to continue to reflect on. I think that I think there definitely were elements of a coaching program. So we did work on things like creating small actions that they could take and furthering that action and checking in on that. And so I think, though, that maybe what they needed the most right now was really the support piece. Maybe that was the thing that was the distinguisher, is that they just needed that more. And that's OK.

And I do think there are some populations and some situations where people really are going to be looking more for a true coaching experience. And, but also, I think there's a lot of ambiguity for people about what that means. So clarifying that, continuing to clarify that up front, what does it mean to be in a coaching space? And what is that going to look like to to set expectations.

Dom Mas: Yeah, thank you so much, Betsy. And I so appreciate that you were willing to let go of what you had planned so that the participants would get what they needed. At the end of the day, that's, that's a big piece of it is how are we serving our people? And I was talking earlier to the next guests who will be on the, on the podcast. And they were talking about this idea of creating a common language, really helping people understand what the program was about. And I think you, you also bring up a tension that you, you were thinking about for future programs and the strategic goals of the organization. And so I know we've talked a little bit about this.

I'm curious for you, when you think about the tension between serving the individuals and so making it more, for example, of a support space, and serving the organization at the same time. How do you navigate that? Or how, now that you're thinking about the next pilot, how would you navigate that without losing the heart of the work, which is serving the clients?

Betsy Campbell: Yeah, I guess for me, in a way, it's, it's kind of a Venn diagram. It's, you know, what are they, what are the, the issues, the concerns for the organization? And the things I'm hearing in one-on-one sessions that speak to overall trends. And then, you know, how does that meet the individual where they are? And what is the need there?

So that's really what I'm looking for is what, what, where is, what is in that space where those two circles overlap and that I can create of space that's really valuable, probably more valuable for the individuals because then it's happening on a group level with more people. So I think in a lot of ways that can multiply the benefit. It can multiply the benefit to the individuals by being able to be in that group experience. And I think the pilot taught me that, that again, that power of being together, as long as it truly is a safe space where they feel welcome and that they really can share.

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Dom Mas: I know your next idea is around mindful change management, and especially for people who are joining through acquisitions. We mentioned earlier IMA is, is growing very, very fast. What makes that the right next pilot for you?

Betsy Campbell: Well, it is the thing that keeps coming up both in the organization and in sessions one-on-one. Sometimes it's not overtly called out as about a need for mindful change management. But I see the, you know, the stress that can be generated by rapid change, and also the need for connection between people. And so the fact that we're growing rapidly by very friendly acquisition, But we have offices all over the place. And many times the leaders are the ones that are most intimately involved in connecting with others across the organization, but not everyone is. And there's a lot of excitement and sometimes trepidation and all kinds of different feelings about joining this organization.

There are also people within the organization that are thinking about Well, IMA was this, but now we're taking on all these others. So who are we now? And what does that look like going forward? So I think that there's huge opportunity to bring people together to make them feel more connected more quickly as they join the organization, to help people know who else can do what else, what, what other kind of talent is there in the organization? Where are opportunities? Who's solving a problem that or who has already solved a problem that I'm trying to solve, etc. So I think it's something that could really ground and energize this time of change for us.

And so, you know, and then the mindful piece of it, just, oh, everything comes back to mindfulness, it feels like, right? So being able to be present and do what's needed now and to again, be grounded and calm as we move through this and not so unsettled by change and thinking through it. How are we doing it? Not just changing to change, but what's behind it. So those are all pieces I think are important to address.

Dom Mas: I really love how your personality comes through in the way you think about these pilots. I always think of you as someone who is very grounded and in all of our conversations, you, you show up in this way. And so I really appreciate that everything you're building has a big part of you in, in it.

What does success look like a year from now if this pilot becomes a, or if any of the, the groups that you've tried become a real coaching infrastructure? Inside I&A.

Betsy Campbell: In some ways, I'm still envisioning that. But I think it is creating both spaces where people can create some of that continuity and some of those relationships and psychological safety over longer periods of time and maybe have cohorts that allow for that, enable that, but then also have ongoing kind of drop-in sessions where people can get that connection they need, but maybe they don't have the same need that they do initially to be in a cohort.

So, but deeper than that, I think just people seeing this program as evidence of the desire of the organization to take care with how change is unfolding and to care for the individuals and also see the great potential in each of the individuals that make up this organization. And so it is true, sometimes people can get lost in growth and change in an organization. So this is an opportunity to, to create more collective connection, more, more of us all pulling in the same direction and feeling really good. And as I said, energized about that.

So that's, to me, what success looks like, that this is evidence for people that that's what we're about. We're a people-first organization. And that's always been a big part of our culture. While we're still working on integrating coaching, we've always been a very people-first very caring organization. And so this is a way to do that under new circumstances in a way or to multiply that.

Dom Mas: Thank you so much for highlighting that. I think it's easy to forget that one of the important values of, or one of the pieces that, or rather, let me rephrase that. One of the things that is truly valuable in building any coaching programs is demonstrating that people are valuable, is showing the investment that the organization is willing to make in their people. And I think we sometimes forget how impactful this can be to articulate to everybody, whether it is to leadership as you're trying to get buy-in, or whether it is to the participants as you're trying to get commitment from them. It's an investment that the organization is making, and it's such a, it's such a beautiful investment. I think it's an important thing to, to point out.

So as we're coming towards the close of this, of this call, Betsy, I'm curious about two things. And the first one is, Now that you, you did the pilot with the women who, who were diagnosed with ADHD, you're moving towards the pilot with regarding mindful change management. You still have a ton of one-on-one coaching clients. What do you think a pilot is really for?

Betsy Campbell: I think it is for testing out ideas and concepts and learning, learning what works and what doesn't, and exploring and keeping things fresh. And probably even just as somebody who is piloting things, it's a practice in— well, it's like practicing what we preach in a way, right? Try things. Take little steps. Don't be afraid to iterate, to you know, to see. And it allows, allows you not to get stale.

And, you know, allows you not to get too caught up in perfectionism, right? What does this look like? How can I get this perfect before I step out there? It allows you to create action rather than sitting thinking, oh my gosh, I have to have this perfect before I go out there. And believe me, I understand those feelings, you know, 'Oh gosh, I don't want anybody to see this until it's exactly right.'

The other benefit though is that really only your participants are seeing it because they're in, they're the ones inside it. So it's not a performance, it's not a, it's not a movie. Other people aren't seeing it in that way. But, but that's what I see it for is, is really a way to try out ideas and see what works and learn for yourself and gain confidence too. That's a part of it.

Dom Mas: What a great metaphor. It's not a movie. Other people are not watching it. It's not a performance.

Betsy Campbell: That's great.

Dom Mas: What would you say is your best advice for others out there who are listening and who are looking to build the coaching culture at their organization?

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Betsy Campbell: I think it aligns with a lot of the things we've talked about. You do your best to leave your ego aside, that you don't have to be the one to do everything. And you can collaborate with others in the organization to, to broaden what is possible for the coaching culture. So as I said, and our HR team is doing some things that align with coaching, I don't have to be the only coach in the organization by a long shot. And, and then come to it with that spirit of experimentation and trying things out so that it allows you to grow and learn. And don't be afraid of that. Just try something, but try it on a small scale. People are more forgiving than you think they are. They really are willing to, especially, well, I guess I would also say, like, be authentic about it. This is a pilot. I'm trying this out. I haven't exactly done this before. And I'm interested in your feedback. And so I definitely do a lot of that too, surveying, finding out how did that land? Again, that's a coaching skill. How did it land for you? How is that for you? What would you like more or less of? And being open to that, knowing that it will make things better and it will grow your confidence.

So, but in the coaching culture in general, I think it's Also always being mindful that you are a role model for coaching concepts. So knowing that and how you're engaging with people and guarding things like confidentiality, extremely important, extremely important. I can't overstate that. So you have to be somebody that people can truly trust.

Dom Mas: Thank you so much, Betsy Campbell. I am incredibly grateful for your support, your willingness to share your experiences, to open up, to share what worked and also what didn't, and the learnings, because I think that's how all of us end up growing and enable— you're really truly enabling others to make their own mistakes. So I'm super grateful for you being here. I believe you mentioned that you would be okay for listeners to reach out to you, so Everyone, if you're listening, feel free to connect with Betsy. Her details will be in the show notes. Betsy, thank you so much.

Betsy Campbell: Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure.

Dom Mas: Thanks so much for joining us today. Follow us on LinkedIn, Instagram, and YouTube at Group Coaching HQ. And remember to subscribe to our mailing list for updates and upcoming events. You can find all of the information and links in the show notes. The Coaching in Organizations podcast is brought to you by Group Coaching HQ and is produced and edited by Mark Pagán.

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